geekosystem

The game cannot be salvaged Wizards has killed D&D it is
now a tactical miniatures game.

I personally really like the 4th edition combat.  I just wish they had more available in-terms of outside comber skills/abilities.  For when you are doing the actual role-playing part.

It has a 1st edition feel with 4th edition balance. Not bad at all.

 I took a look at the playtest, and it seems like the best of 2nd, 3rd and a very minor part of 4th (not miniatures). I am more excited about 5th than I was with 3rd.

I’ve had plenty of fun role playing without DnD rules getting in the way at all. It’s just role playing pure and simple and it’s way more fun.

4th edition is the worse.  1st ed is still the best.  WOC and TSR took the game from Gygax and and went downhill with it ever since.  Always the same world, taking all the imagination away from the players, etc.

why do you say that?  Well I always wanted to play with the minis never did though but I loved the books and now the books are GONE 

This makes it sound as if 4E was the only time there was an edition war. I remember plenty of people being unhappy at the changes 3E brought about, and even more at 3.5 (mostly at having to buy the same books with what were seen as very minor changes).

 You can play with minis in any edition of D & D. I play 3.5 and we use minis all the time… put this is used to enhance game play, not be the focus of it…

Then it’s your chance to add some constructive input to the next generation and put back in what you evidently think is lost. Your opinion is laughable because if they just wanted to rake money in with 4E they would have rolled out something like Pathfinder instead of going for something much bolder like 4E.

…is exactly what 3rd edition players say and exactly what 1st edition players dislike. See the dilemma? If the core is simple enough for the grognards, there can be modules attached to it for the Pathfinder fans.

every one should just play the games they like a shut up… i played every edition since 1st and they all are good and bad by them self in different ways, its all the same game once you get down to it…just play it the way you want to….i still like 2ed but i can play 4th and not be a baby about it, i play pathfinder but dont call it superior, i played palludum and no one sayed that was better than D&D. im playing pathfinder right now….not better that D&D or less then, same thing.

If it’s possible to play the next version even WITHOUT miniatures, then I’m in.  You could play the 1st ed and the 2nd ed without miniatures.  Let’s go back to the pen & paper roots and not towards more miniatures.

where the heck you been Sten??  I’ve played 4th ed. and we don’t use minatures…how about that?

The point of Next is to focus more on actual roleplaying than all the minor details that might have an effect on your game. By simplifying it they made it easier to just pick up and play, rather than spend a week or so preparing to try the game for the first time.

I was liking the play-test, up until the “at-will cantrips”.  Now every 1st level mage can cast shocking grasp at-will.  (I haven’t downloaded the next playtest module, so maybe I’m wrong).  I miss the old world of D&D as a fantasy realm where normal people with mostly normal abilities take on the world, and slowly grow more powerful.  Having everyone able to toss fireballs at will makes the D&D world look like WoW, all beleivability gone.

The complexities of D&D were just annoying. The really great thing about 3.5 and pathfinder was the customization of your character and the freedom granted by the rules

I hope you meant it looks like 3.5 ed with some extra bits added on. It looks NOTHING like 4th ed…..THANK KORD!

As a player (and not a DM), I like what I see in D&D Next so far.

The thing I always felt constrained by in 2e was that the kits were so rigid, I often felt like I was playing a character someone else designed, and if I wanted to play something a bit different, I had to hope someone else had designed another kit that I might like better.

In 3e, I had all the control over my character I could ever want. It was awesome. But it took forever to set up a character, and the rules sprawled all over the place. Fiddling with skill points and feat trees and multiclass progression and such was a serious pain. 3e (well, 3.5e) is still my absolute favorite to date, but there were definitely ways in which the complications did it no favors, even aside from the difficulty of DMing.

4e nailed a lot of those things down — the rules were a lot less sprawling, and the game was distilled down into more of a, well, game. But playing different classes didn’t feel different enough — everything was so tightly molded into the same ruleset to the point where it often seemed like a pure tactical game that had some RP elements bolted on, mostly as flavor text. Playing a wizard didn’t feel different enough from playing a fighter (well, except that I was playing one of the core “roles”, which seemed really rigid and normative). Skill challenges were a well-intentioned but kind of goofy way to systemize non-combat RP. And it seemed like you needed a ton of stuff to play — all these books, Character Builder (because it was hard to keep track of the numbers manually), dungeon tiles, minis, power cards, and so on. But managing things like skills was a lot easier, the tactical elements added to combat took it out of the “I whack him with my sword again” rote that was common in earlier editions, and the overall structure made it easier to get my head around the rules, even if it seemed to go a bit far.

The D&D Next rules, so far, feel like they’ve kept most of the simple parts of 4e, but jettisoned the homogeneity. Wizards having memorized spell slots, sorcerers having manna points (and other abilities related to the source of their powers), and warlocks having (effectively) at will and encounter powers are a perfect way to accomplish similar goals with mechanics that feel distinctive. Fighters get lots of fighting tactics in several distinctive build options, clerics get build options for a battle cleric and a more spell oriented one, and rogues get real advantages when they use skills without having way more of them with anyone else. It really feels like the best of 4e tempered with a more traditional RP feel. And it definitely feels like something more natural to play without minis, for groups who prefer that. Some things have been made even simpler — there’s not nearly as many calculated secondary numbers now, such as saving throws — you just use the bonus from the applicable stat. Nice. I really like the track they’re on.

It doesn’t have the sheer breadth of character possibilities (by way of mixing and matching various class levels, skills, and feats) that 3e had, but it doesn’t feel like I’m playing a class kit — or a set of mechanics disguised as a character — either.

This should be perfect for releasing a stripped down starter box with just the core 4 races and 4 classes that are in the play test, releasing a set of 3 books with a full range of the familiar races and classes for non-epic adventures, and extending outward with all sorts of additional materials of all the familiar kinds. Like their goal for the failed Essentials experiment, it should be easy to get started, and easy to play to any level of depth desired. Which is really what a good, flexible RPG system ought to be.

There was plenty of blame to go around back in 85′-87′+. Lorraine Williams did some horrible things, but it was Gary Gygax who fired the first shots. I honestly think he was certifiably insane for a few years there.

I agree that AD&D got way off track once The GM was no longer involved. But TSR would probably have ceased to exist without Ms. Williams.

IDK, maybe this is one of the things wrong with capitalism in general, the need to constantly re-monetize product. That being the case its hard to think too badly of the corporate business people, they are making the best of a bad situation, and creating some good stuff.

I wonder if all the angst directed at them isn’t entirely justified but also very misplaced.

Fuck Wizards of the Coast! They have let capitalism and corporate ruin their entire product line. A new edition every five years? Give me a fuckin break. They’re only interested in the fast buck from the temporary gamer. They don’t give a shit about the long-term gamer (the players that really matter) anymore. I’ve played every edition of D&D and to say that 1st or 2nd is better cuz it was simpler or gave more power to the DM is just stupid. 3rd and 3.5 were the best, and now pathfinder is the current front-runner. I will probly never play another Wotc game again thanks to 4th edition D&D. I’ll stick with pathfinder. 3rd edition introduced rules for everything players wanted to do in 1st and 2nd. Character options, crafting, and playing non-standard races. They weren’t just arbitrary rules to make the game more complex, and if they did make the game more complex, who the hell cares? Let the retards who can’t figure it out play WoW or Two Worlds. 4th edition sucked because it was too much like a video game. It was basically table-top WoW. Fighters and paladins are tanks, rogues and mages are DPS, and clerics heal. I’ll give 4th edition one prop…at least it gave characters more attack options than just “I attack with my sword…again.” 5th edition will not be better. It will not be a return to the good ol days of D&D. It will just lick ballz. As will every subsequent edition of D&D to come. Fuck wotc. fuck D&D. I’m sticking to pathfinder and Shadowrun.